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| Inconsistencies in character statements and inconsistencies in fans power scaling | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 4 2018, 11:01 PM (2,492 Views) | |
| superperfectnerd | Jan 4 2018, 11:01 PM Post #1 |
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This all essentially comes down to Piccolo in the Cell and Boo arcs. There are two things many fans argue that can't coexist in the scaling but are still argued to death. Piccolo after ROSAT is considered to be relative to the ssjs in the Cell Games, I infact have him lower than 1 trip ssj Vegeta but that still puts him at about a fifth of assj Trunks and Vegeta. Vegeta himself was confident at the start of the Cell Games, he's sensed Goku's power (he thought the 50% he showed Korin was Goku's full strength), so Vegeta is probably about 25% stronger than that. Gohan is slightly stronger than Goku but it's not a big enough difference for Gohan to even notice he's stronger than his father, likely due to Goku's superior skill and experience during their sparring, so let's say fpssj Gohan is 10% stronger than fpssj Goku. Then after 7 years most people assert Vegeta isn't stronger than Gohan in ssj2 from The Cell Games based on him pondering Gohan's strength. Then Vegeta and Piccolo both imply they're relative to ssj2 Gohan in the fight with Goku. So they must be less that twice as strong as ssj2 Gohan from The Cell Games... and yet, base saiyans are/were presumed to be stronger than Piccolo in base because they were confident to fight him in the martial arts tournament. How does that make any sense? Cell Games Vegeta = 1 Ssj Vegeta = 50 Assj Vegeta = 75 Piccolo = 15 Goku = 2 Fpssj Goku = 100 Gohan = 2.2 Fpssj Gohan= 110 Ssj2 Gohan = 220 Goku and Vegeta ssj2 (at most for Gohan to be within their league) = 440 440 divided by 100 puts their bases at 4.4, Piccolo has gotten stronger since The Cell Games so he's probably around 35. How are the base saiyans supposed to beat him? So this clear inconsistency in character statements, with no feats to back them up was supported for a long time and it brings me to my point. Why do people cling to ssj3 Vegetto <<< ssjg Goku when other feats since have implied that's not the case? (eg ase Kefla = ssjg Goku) or that Goku and Vegeta absoebed ssjg power into base and yet Piccolo, Frost and Cabba from feats are way stronger than ssjg must have been then? Why do people cling to ssj Gotenks (pre ROSAT) < base Gotenks (post ROSAT) just because Piccolo spouts some bulls*** about Gotenks standing a chance it but then later in the arc ssj3 Goku is still somehow relevant? Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta can't simultaneously be relevant to ssj2 Gohan from the Cell games, with Piccolo as strong as a ssj from the Cell games and then the base saiyans still be stronger than Piccolo in the Boo saga. So character statements mean absolutely nothing. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 4 2018, 11:04 PM.
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| Dagon | Jan 5 2018, 08:39 AM Post #2 |
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You're going to have to provide some source on that. I don't recall it and I can't look it up because I sold my manga. Current SSJG Goku is different than original SSJG Goku. Boom, shocker, I know, right? Goku said not even merged with Vegeta does he have a chance against Beerus. This is never contradicted despite your claim. Piccolo vs Frost is as simple as Piccolo's ki amp was really good and/or Frost lost a lot of ki. Very simple. Base Cabba was comparable to base Vegeta by Vegeta's own words. Literally cannot argue against that. Character statements are correct until proven otherwise by a feat or another statement. Charcter A says Charcter B is stronger than him, Charcter B cannot beat character C, thus Character C>>Character A. Edited by Dagon, Jan 5 2018, 08:52 AM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 5 2018, 02:39 PM Post #3 |
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Everything I just wrote is what proves character statements are disproven all the time. Gohan is rusty and weaker than his Cell Games self but he's not hundreds of times weaker than ssj2 Goku and Vegeta is he? And yet people ascertain that Piccolo is weaker than the base saiyans because they agree not to use ssj in the tournament. Makes no sense. So for you there are two versions of ssjg with different boosts but a two base theory is silly? Both are examples of forms looking like another form but having a vastly different amount of power. So why is two bases so ridiculous but two versions of ssjg okay? Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 5 2018, 02:40 PM.
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| Slifer | Jan 5 2018, 06:02 PM Post #4 |
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Goku saying fusion can't beat Beerus is author's intent. The author is telling us "Look, the protagonist's strongest method of dealing with someone isn't enough so he needs something stronger. So here's this new form called Super Saiyan God.". Granted SSJG still wasn't enough but that's not the point here. Isn't it easier to say: 1. Fusion boost makes no sense and is plot-based. 2. Fusion boost can make sense but it's much larger now, retconning the Z/BoG boost. 3. The boost increases the stronger the two fusees are which can explain 2, I guess. If the Potara boost was anywhere near as huge as Kefla's in Z then why did Vegetto bother turning SSJ against Boo? Even his Base power would've been waaaayyyyy overkill. |
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| Dagon | Jan 5 2018, 06:03 PM Post #5 |
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Two base theory is incorrect because not once does anyone say "This is my base form. *bzwhoossh* And this is my base form with god ki." Until that happens 2 base theory is bogus. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 6 2018, 01:02 AM Post #6 |
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And nobody says "bwoosh this is ssjg" and "bwoosh this is ssjg but the multiplier has changed and I'm not as much stronger than a ssj3 as I used to be". |
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| Toxin45 | Jan 6 2018, 01:05 AM Post #7 |
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2-base theory doesn't have any validity anymore now that we know base ki isn't just god ki. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 6 2018, 01:28 AM Post #8 |
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Time and time again what characters say don't fit with later events. Everyone is having to headcanon this to some extent, that's how ridiculous it all is. |
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| StrenuousSpider | Jan 6 2018, 01:30 AM Post #9 |
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2 base honestly is proven with ssj blue. As its been said many times even by toriyama himself i believe ssj blue is just ssj with the power of ssj god which is you guessed it god ki. So why is it that he can use normal ki and god ki in ssj but not base? I see no reason why he would say he is useing god ki in base he would just power up further. Its more like his full power then a actual transformation. Most fights can be chalked up to him wanting a good fight and only resorting to blue because its less stamina consuming then 3 and needs power stronger then his ssj2. And god and blue above god when needed like with dyspo,toppo ect... Or if he just wants to troll someone like he did against caulifa and kale lol. It would easily explain why he was able to completely humiliate ssj or ssj2 caulifa while in base but did the same against her as a ssj2. And this would put most of the U6 and tournament as well as people like krillian in the buu saga level of characters instead of god teir. And all of this fits perfectly into the statement about goku not being much stronger then his namik self still needing ssj to beat freiza. |
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| Dagon | Jan 6 2018, 04:07 AM Post #10 |
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The first time Goku turns SSJG it is a ritual. Goku lost the form and couldn't even reattain it until much later. His body wasn't ready for it yet. It's not the same as multipliers for other SSJ forms. Stop treating it like it would be the same boost all the time. Plus, your example is preposterous. It reeks of strawman. God ki is activated when they turn SSJG or SSJB. Before then it's mortal ki, but their mortal ki has been amped up. In Goku's case, the power of SSJG made his body adapt to that power level. In Vegeta's case, he had months of training with Whis to make him on Goku's level so he'd be a good training partner. Whis skipped out on training Goku for months because Vegeta was nowhere close to that level. Vegeta got absurdly stronger even before he felt God ki. There is not a second pool of ki in which they pour into their "mortal" forms to amp them up. They're simply either holding back or not. It's as simple as that. The fight with Goku vs Caulifla and Kale, the girls started out much lower and their power levels rose as the fight went on. That is what is stated multiple times. It's not stated "Oh, now Goku has god ki and he'll make his mortal forms stronger," nope, you're wrong. That fight was simply ass-pull city for the girls. They just awakened their full fighting potential while fighting Goku. That's all that happened. Edited by Dagon, Jan 6 2018, 05:17 AM.
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| StrenuousSpider | Jan 6 2018, 10:43 AM Post #11 |
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Again it never has to be stated anywhere that they are useing it in base or not. It be completely stupid in the sense of story for goku to just say when he is or is not. Hell he used some god power while in ssj3 in manga to beat trunks and we know this from whis i believe. So we can assume hes done it before but this is the only time we are actual told it happened. So useing god ki dose not just automatically turn you god or blue and i dont think the anime is to different in aspects like that. Vegetas situation means nothing as ive never said anywhere someone with normal ki cant be stronger or equal to someone with god ki. Hell freiza is proof of that. Base goku = final form freiza >> Bssj kale > ssj2 goku >= ssj2 caulifa > base goku Only way i see that working if there is some amping going on. Yes they unlocked more potential but you dont get 100s of times stronger in a matter of literal seconds. Over all them being in the buu saga level of characters is a lot more believable then a sayain who has never gone ssj being stronger then ssj god by a huge amount. Its why i look at him absorbing god in a different way then most in that he can amp himself. Channelling 100% in base goes ssjg and channeling 100% in ssj goes ssj blue but he can channel any amount under 100% without transforming like he can do in manga. |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 6 2018, 12:54 PM Post #12 |
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You are stating 'God-Ki' as a reference point of transforming into Red, right? Let's go with this and state SSJG = God-power = God-Ki = perfect Ki-control Then you are saying their baseforms are extremely powerfull due to their bodies adapting to that power level. So that's basically learning perfect Ki-control (equivalent to God-Ki), right? Learning Ki-control through long and extented training with a higher being such as Beerus or Whis. But that's what's SSJG is all about. You are basically confirming two-base-theory yourself by stating both Goku and Vegeta have insanely strong baseforms/levels. How else have they gotten these extremely strong baseforms besides obtaining the power of a true SSJG? You are conforming the theory you despize the most. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 6 2018, 06:23 PM Post #13 |
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For the record, I don't believe in two base theory, I believe the power scale has been retconned to fit with new material since the two movies but Toriyama didn't bother to really think about it or tell the writers things are different since the movies, the manga has no absorption of god ki into base to back this up. All I'm saying is that suggesting ssjg is not the same boost as it originally was is just as unfounded as saying their are two bases. Both are an attempt by us fans to headcanon the s*** scaling we've been subjected to. My initial point is that new material often changes the way things have been depicted by the old and surely the most recent feat/statement is the one e should go by. The whole "let's not use ssj" and Vegeta, Goku and even a rusty Gohan eing confident they can win the tournament doesn't make the base saiyans stronger than Piccolo or android 18 because Gohan has gotten weaker and Piccolo wasn't fodder compared to the assjs against the Cell jrs and also Vegeta was stronger than 50% of Goku. Piccolo < Cell jr <= assj Vegeta < fpssj Goku (50 times boost) cannot fit if Piccolo is over fifty times weaker than a ssj Then we have BOG suggesting Goku is weaker than 100% Freeza in his base form. My point is Goku saying that "Vegetto wouldn't be enough" is as shaky as taking Gohan's words to mean Piccolo < base saiyans because this is a cartoon, the writers are probably simply trying to remind us of ssj Vegetto versus Boo and saying THAT power wouldn't be enough, you know, the power Goku has actually physically experienced rather than him mathematically figuring out exactly how strong a ssj3 version of a 3 years later fusion with Vegeta would be and how it would measure up against an opponent he can't even sense. You know, the power a predominantly young audience has actually seen. Yes it's stupid for Goku to not think of the possibilities of a stronger Vegetto but Goku is stupid. He has done many stupid things and every arc has the heroes f***ing up in order to make the villains a threat. Goku probably just wants to fight alone as well and not have to fuse. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 6 2018, 06:27 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 6 2018, 07:30 PM Post #14 |
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The thing about Goku's statement is that he later said, after achieving Super Saiyan God, that he had no idea a world like this existed. He wouldn't need to mathematically figure out how powerful a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto would be to know that kind of power would be insane (considering Super Saiyan was enough to gutterstomp Boo), yet God was flabbergasting to him. At least, I think I'm remembering that line correctly. |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 6 2018, 07:42 PM Post #15 |
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When he would be able to tap in such an amount of power and control in base and SSJ without transforming, transformations from SSJ to SSJG would not be needed anymore, 'enriching his SSJ-forms with God-Ki' would even be less needed. This while Goku still needed to transform to take on a fully-charged Frost during U6-tournament, who was pretty much confronted by Piccolo. I don't believe in two-base-theory, but i don't think he has God-level powers or -control in forms lower than SSJG either. I mean, what's else the point in still having a Super Saiyan God in the first place? It would have made more sense if they had just kept it like it was in the movies. A truely ascended being does not transform to use his God-powers, i assume. It wouldn't have done any good to the toyssales for Super though and that's why they made him poop out again all the forms between SSJ1 and SSJG. Why else? Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 6 2018, 08:59 PM.
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